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nikoleta_rangelova
Member
# Posted: 29 Dec 2008 14:30 - Edited by: nikoleta_rangelova
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Let's come here from the Ruslana in BG topic

flipsty
like що instead of что,

But in Russian что must be pronounced as що. Even- шчо And I really thought her Russian must be perfect, but when I thought I had noticed this G-H issue I mentioned. It seems most Gs in Ukrainian are read as H. There are such also in Russian, but in UA even more I think(only Ruslana and forum obseravtion, not some real knowledge).

but if she makes very subtle mistakes - I'm in trouble.


haha, Let's hope she doesn't

flipsty
Member
# Posted: 29 Dec 2008 14:56
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nikoleta_rangelova
But in Russian что must be pronounced as що.
From what I've heard (from Ruslana and Ukrainian songs etc) The Ukrainian word що should be pronounced sho, right? And the Russian word что is shto?

I read a Russian book a few months ago and the Ukrainian lady in the story always said що instead of что and that's what made her accent distinctly Ukrainian.

It seems most Gs in Ukrainian are read as H.
Just when they look like this √ and not this •.
When is the latter ever used? I don't know.

nikoleta_rangelova
Member
# Posted: 29 Dec 2008 15:05 - Edited by: nikoleta_rangelova
Reply 


flipsty
The Ukrainian word що should be pronounced sho, right?

I won't give advices about Ukrainian, don't know, my knowledge is gathered piece by piece from the forum and it is =nothing

And the Russian word что is shto?
Yes. I said що because simply in BG the letters щ+о correspond to the sounding of shto. Sorry for the confusion. In Russian что is shto and I don't know how would be що pronounced in UA

When is the latter ever used? I don't know.
No idea I even see it for the first time. But in Russian also they have that e with the two dots above-ë-, pronounced like "yo", but in normal written speech, I have many times seen that it is not written and only normal e is used. May be also with the √ and • is the same case.

But better some Ukrainian explains us, unless of course if Ruslana herself won't shows some desire to do so

flipsty
Member
# Posted: 29 Dec 2008 15:29 - Edited by: flipsty
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I don't know hardly anything about Ukrainian either, but I just found University of Toronto has the audio for the textbook I have - for free on the interweb, YEE-HAW!

Oh, now I can hear Ukrainian що and it is pronounced SCHTO.

Guido
Member
# Posted: 29 Dec 2008 15:44 - Edited by: Guido
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I said що
I am not Ruslana of course, but according to my Ukrainian Phrasebook щ is pronounced - in english as shch as in fresh cheese.
But that's a very bad book. In fact if you want to pronounce shch you first have to eat some very very old cheese. Otherwise it's impossible.

But fortunately I also invested in the Ukrainian/English dictionary. Worthless too since I don't understand neither speak English.
But there I found : ўаст€. And we al know how Ruslana pronounces that word ?

Just when they look like this √ and not this •.
When is the latter ever used? I don't know.


Sorry blue book. Page 14 : The letter • was included in alphabet (wrong word in cyr) in 1929 and disappeared in 1946. It came back in 1993.
It's like H and G in our alphabet. But my impression is Ukrainians have problems with the difference between those two. Same here in Flanders. I am born in Gent, but there they pronounce it Hent.
Don't worry : be Ukrainian.

nikoleta_rangelova
Member
# Posted: 30 Dec 2008 11:41
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Guido
ok, so,

що=shcho
что=shto

??

Ruslanita95
Member
# Posted: 31 Dec 2008 08:45
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Please, I'm very curious, but how many differences exist from ukrainian to russian???? Somebody told me that they are identic, but with some small differences. And then he said to me that ukrainian language is like a dialect of russian. True?????

nikoleta_rangelova
Member
# Posted: 31 Dec 2008 09:56
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Ruslanita95
And then he said to me that ukrainian language is like a dialect of russian. True????

Hm, if we take it from this point of view, each Slavic language can be a dialect of another.

Somebody told me that they are identic, but with some small differences.
If someone speaks to me iin Russian, I'll understand, but if they do in Ukrainian, I'm sure, I won't. So, they are not identical at all, but may be some small similarities exist, wow And yet, Ukrainian must be closer to Russian than to Bulgarian, I think Some native speaker could help us

wespecz
Moderator
# Posted: 31 Dec 2008 14:24 - Edited by: wespecz
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Ruslanita95
Please, I'm very curious, but how many differences exist from ukrainian to russian????
There is one easy thing which always say you how to recognize written Ukrainian from Russian easilly. Ukrainian language have "≥" and "њ" (ji) but in Russian you will never find this letter. They have "и" and "ы" instead. Thanks to our Ukrainian friends for this advice which is very useful!

Guido
Member
# Posted: 31 Dec 2008 17:55
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Someone remembers Guntram ? He gave me that tip years ago. It's a useful tip. I used it in a bookshop in Antwerp to identify a newspaper as russian and not ukrainian.

flipsty
Member
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 17:02 - Edited by: flipsty
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I found that there's a Russian version of "Married... with Children", a show I used to watch when I was little (it's an odd choice of TV show for children, but my older sister and I were like that ) it's called; "—частливы вместе".

When I watch Married... with Children now, it just seems like the goofiest sit-com in the world. Absolutely ridiculous. I think people liked it because it was about people much like themselves, but I don't imagine Russians would get it...

The Russian version is not bad, really goofy like the original and the language is easy enough for me to comprehend.

Ruthen
Moderator
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 17:03 - Edited by: Ruthen
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flipsty
I love this Russian version. When I spent one whole summer in Ukraine, I used to watch it everynight. So fun!

There is also a Russian version of Nanny, or how do you call it in the States. It's really fun as well

Ruthen
Moderator
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 17:05
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wespecz
There is one easy thing which always say you how to recognize written Ukrainian from Russian easilly. Ukrainian language have "≥" and "њ" (ji) but in Russian you will never find this letter. They have "и" and "ы" instead. Thanks to our Ukrainian friends for this advice which is very useful!
It's very usefull for Fansite I guess....otherwise you can mix up translations

flipsty
Member
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 17:09
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Ruthen
You like it. I read that a lot of people think it's dumb.

Ruthen
Moderator
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 17:12
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flipsty
Which one? Schastlivy Vmeste or Nanny? Lol. I like both, but I watch them just for fun. It's not something intelligent, you won't watch it for your general culture.... But it makes laugh on holidays evenings

nikoleta_rangelova
Member
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 17:16 - Edited by: nikoleta_rangelova
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flipsty
You like it. I read that a lot of people think it's dumb.
Sometimes the humour is predictable which doesn't make it really funny, but it was popular here as well. Don't remember when. You say the Russians may not get it/like it, but, hm, why not, my mother liked it. And not because she was like the wife, because we are quite exactly the opposite may be, haha But we are offtopic, if we don't start discussing that Married with Children and Schastlivye Vmeste is not a literal translation Let's go to the free chat, if there is something more

flipsty
Member
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 17:17
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Ruthen
Which one? Schastlivy Vmeste or Nanny?
—частливы вместе. I didn't know about a Russian version of The Nanny, what's it called? Ќ€н€?

Ruthen
Moderator
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 17:21 - Edited by: Ruthen
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flipsty
Moja prekrasnaja njanja. It's a bit the same thing, whith a rich producer, the nanny and the nasty secretary lol. But it's a bit russificated, for exemple the Nanny isn't Jewish, but Ukrainian, the story happens in Moscow etc...

wespecz
Moderator
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 19:20 - Edited by: wespecz
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Ruthen
It's very usefull for Fansite I guess....otherwise you can mix up translations
Exactly! Before this I was using translator to recognize the languages after receiving translation. Theese were just the first weeks, of course. Then you told me this perfect thing and then I have started learning cyrillics.

Ruthen
Moderator
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 20:29
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wespecz
Actually I thought of a Czech/Slovak as well, tell me if it's true. In Slovak you can have ä and ô, but not in Czech. In Czech you can have Ě and Ř, but not in Slovak. Am I right for it?

wespecz
Moderator
# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 22:45
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Ruthen
Yes, you are right!

In Czech there are speciffic letters such as č, ď, ch (this is not "ч"), ň, ř, š, ť, ž which have their place on the alphabet. There are also á, é, í, ó, ú (ů), ý but they are taken as the same as a, e, i, o, u and they don't belongs to the alphabet. They're the same letters as without any symbol above them. Only their pronunciation is long, á = aaa etc.

Czech alphabet is:

a, b, c, č, d, ď, e, f, g, h, ch, i, j, k, l, m, n, ň, o, p, q, r, ř, s, š, t, ť, u, v, w, x, y, z, ž.

Czech alphabet by Wikipedia (nonsense, á, é etc. don't belongs here):

a, á, b, c, č, d, ď, e, é, ě, f, g, h, ch, i, í, j, k, l, m, n, ň, o, ó, p, q, r, ř, s, š, t, ť, u, ú, ů, v, w, x, y, ý, z, ž

Slovak alphabet by Wikipedia:

a, á, ä, b, c, č, d, ď, dz, dž, e, é, f, g, h, ch, i, í, j, k, l, ĺ, ľ, m, n, ň, o, ó, ô, p, q, r, ŕ, s, š, t, ť, u, ú, v, w, x, y, ý, z, ž.

Scoub
Member
# Posted: 5 Jan 2009 01:17 - Edited by: Scoub
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- Excuse me for the long and extensive post!
The Dutch alphabet:
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

but the letters q, x and y are used only in some (most foreign) words. sometimes the 'IJ'-ligature is seen as a single letter, and then it's placed before, together with or replacing the Y. X, IJ, Y, Z or X, IJ/Y, Z or X, IJ, Z
(there is a unicode character for the ligature 'IJ', but it isn't used.

and next to the alfabet we use the modified letters (no part of the alfabet):
- ä, ë, ï, ö, ü (vowel+diaeresis) to show the letter is suposed to pronounced separate (otherwise you get diphtongs)
- á, é, í, ó, ú (vowel+accute) to put stress on the letters (or to show the vowel has to pronounced long)
- è (to show the vowel has to be pronounced short)

and than we got the digraphes, trigraphes and tetragraphes (no part of the alphabet either):
- aa, ee, ie, oo, uu, eu, ui, ei, oi, ai, ou, au, oe, (ij), uw, ch, ts.
- sj, zj, tsj, sch, ieuw, eeuw (although these are (mostly) just s+j, z+j, ts+j, s+ch, ie+uw, ee+uw) so no real tetragraphes.

to compare the dutch letters/di-, tri- and tetragraphes with other languages in pronunciation:
A: A (or in english, ah)
B: B (at the end of a word: P)
C: K (before E and I: S)
D: D (at the end of a word: T)
E: mostly like French 'e' (like 'e' in th english word 'the') or as french é or è (like ey in english or e (as in leg))
F: F
G: (ɣ) like Spanish 'J' - something like: 'х' in russian/ukrainian
H: H (in english, french) (г in Ukrainian)
I: as in english 'bit or beet' (at the and of a word see: J)
J: like german J (Ukrainian/Russian '…')
K, L, M, N: (K L M N) as in most languages
O: (like 'god' or 'goat' (sometimes show) in english)
P: P
Q: K (Qu = (Dutch) kw))
R, S, T: like in most languages
U: like in french (or german ü)
V: like english V
W: like German W/Ukrainian '¬'
X: Ks
Y: see I and J, or like french 'eil'/Russian 'эй'
Z: like english Z

double vowels (long version of the single)
ie: like English ee, Ukrainian '≥'
au: like english au or Russian/Ukrainian 'ау'
ou: like au (some loanwords see: 'oe')
oe: like Russian/Ukrainian: ” or french ou or german U
eu: like french 'eu', or german/swedish ö, or danish/norwegian ø
ui: like a+u (german aü), Icelandic 'au'
ei/ij: like french 'eil', norwegian 'eg' in 'jeg' or Russian 'эй'
oi and ai: like oj and aj (ой, ай) - oi and ei in german.
uw: something like 'ew' in english - at the and of a word like english W
ts: ц (english ts)
ch: like german 'ch' or Russian/Ukrainian 'х'
sch: s+ch - Russian/Ukrainian 'сх'
sj: Russian/Ukrainian: ш or с-й (english sh or s-y)
tsj: Russian/Ukrainian: ч or ц-й (english: ch or ts-y)
ieuw and eeuw: like 'eew' and 'eyw' in english

ä, ë, ï, ö, ü:
Oekraine would be in cyrillic: ”крайне
while Oekraïne becomes: ”краине/”кра≥не
and Hawai would be (in Ukrainian Cyrillic) '√авай' while Hawaï becomes: '√авањ' (Hawaii is used too)
á, é, í, ó, ú:
"I am hungry TOO!"
ДIk heb óók honger!"
- Hé! (Hey!), Hè? (Huh?)

Ruthen
Moderator
# Posted: 5 Jan 2009 16:53
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wespecz
Thanks, you made it clear for me

Scoub
Thanks, really interesting!

nikoleta_rangelova
Member
# Posted: 18 Jan 2009 10:48
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Time for native speakers to laugh Can you help me with several simple sentences? This will be our mid-term test in Russian, plus a Ru->BG translation which I can manage myself. We have to write some simple dialogue. Could you tell me if and where there are ny mistakes? Thanks

-«драствуй, wespe! ()
-«драствуй, Ќики, очень рад тебе видит!  ак у теб€ дела?
-«автра € иду заграницу.
-ј у теб€ есть паспорт? “ы уже покупала билет туда? Ќа склько дней тво€ виза?
-ƒа, да, у мен€ виза на п€тнадцат дней, все в пор€дке, wespe. я только не знаю если ввоз алкогол€ запрещен. ” мен€ в багаже есть только одну бутылку дл€ моего друга.
-“аможники могут тебе оштрафовать.
-«наю, знаю, € попробую ввожу его, если они мне не разрешать, € оставлю бутылку на таможне.

wespecz
Moderator
# Posted: 18 Jan 2009 11:26
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nikoleta_rangelova
-«драствуй, wespe!
ѕривет, Ќики! ќчень при€тно!

And the rest I understood by translator. Omg alcohol ... *japo*

Thank you, I feel honoured as you have included me to your homework!

wild_olchyk
Moderator
# Posted: 18 Jan 2009 11:44
Reply 


nikoleta_rangelova

-«дравствуй, wespe!
-«дравствуй, Ќики! ќчень рад теб€ видеть!  ак у теб€ дела?
- «автра € еду заграницу.
- ј у теб€ есть паспорт? “ы уже купила билет туда? Ќа сколько дней тво€ виза?
- ƒа, да, у мен€ виза на п€тнадцать дней. ¬се в пор€дке, wespe. я только не знаю, разрешен ли ввоз алкогол€. ” мен€ в багаже есть бутылка дл€ моего друга.
- “аможенники могут теб€ оштрафовать.
- «наю, знаю, € попробую ввезти его. ≈сли они мне не разрешат, € оставлю бутылку на таможне.

Good luck with your test!

nikoleta_rangelova
Member
# Posted: 18 Jan 2009 12:04 - Edited by: nikoleta_rangelova
Reply 


wild_olchyk
Good luck with your test!
Thank you!

OmG tebe and tabya and the ь And the zdraVstvuy, of course :F


wespe
And the rest I understood by translator. Omg alcohol ... *japo*
I also put it through the translator before posting, hahaha, it seems it can't catch any mistakes

Ruthen
Moderator
# Posted: 18 Jan 2009 13:32
Reply 


nikoleta_rangelova

Just a few explanations, so that you can remember better for the test
-тебе is Ukrainian, теб€ is Russian
-видить needs a soft sign as it is an infinitive
- € иду= I go on foot € eду= I go by car/by train.... In this expression, eду is by far the most logical one
-покупала= you have already bought tickets in the past several times; купила= you have bought it for this trip in particular
- п€тнадцать, usually there is a soft sign in numerals ending by soft vowels, in those cases, usually there is no soft sign inside the words.
-если ввоз алкогол€ запрещен: in Russian you don't usually use the если +negative form... postive+ ли is, indeed, more elegant, so one says, like Olchyk said: разрешен ли ввоз
- есть только одну бутылку= есть is used with Nominative, because here the bottle is the subject of the sentence: есть только одна бутылка/ есть всего лишь одна бутылка or even simply есть бутылка.
- € попробую ввожу его= The sentence is in the future, so you use infinitive for the second verb (€ попробую ввезти его)...
-если они мне не разрешать: Here it isn't the infinitive form, nor second person singular of present, so you can't have a soft sign at the end: разрешать= to allow, разрешат= they will allow

Good wild luck and feel free to ask questions if you have some

nikoleta_rangelova
Member
# Posted: 18 Jan 2009 13:51
Reply 


Ruthen
-тебе is Ukrainian, теб€ is Russian
And in Russian tebe is with the question Komu, right? In Dative case. While tebya is with Kogo which I had to use in Rad tebya videtь, Accusitive case..?

-видить needs a soft sign as it is an infinitive
Yes, infinitive :F

- € иду= I go on foot € eду= I go by car/by train.... In this expression, eду is by far the most logical one
Yes, after the correction I remembered this "small" detail. It would be quite of a fehler to idu abroad if I didn't live 50 metres away from the border.

-покупала= you have already bought tickets in the past several times; купила= you have bought it for this trip in particular
Aha! Pokupat- non finite, Kupit- finite ?

разрешать= to allow, разрешат= they will allow
OmG

Thank you as well!

Good wild luck
I think I'll need it

feel free to ask questions if you have some
Okay From what we have to translate, what exactly bear is the: бурый медведь

and from: ѕечора впадает в ѕечорскую губу Ѕеренцева мор€ what is губa, is this the word?

I already asked WildYennifer about some sort of moss and different-grass-something wow, luckily I don't have to translate that part

Ruthen
Moderator
# Posted: 18 Jan 2009 13:59
Reply 


nikoleta_rangelova
Pokupat- non finite, Kupit- finite?
Exactly.
бурый медведь
It is simply a brown bear.
ѕечора впадает в ѕечорскую губу Ѕеренцева мор€
губa= a bay into which a river flows, an estuary (some rivers, when the flow into a sea form a delta, some other just a small bay, that's a губa)

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